The Writing Life with Martin Cloutier
Read our Ginosko Literary Journal interview with Martin Cloutier, upon the release of his new novel, Waiting for Something Else
In this conversation, Martin Cloutier sits down with Ben C. Davies to discuss writing truth over kindness, the challenges of collaboration, and why humor is the spine of his new novel.
About You as a Writer
What first made you want to write fiction? Was there a particular moment, influence, or story that opened that door for you?
I suppose the main thing that made me first want to write fiction was my dissatisfaction with being able to practice my art as a playwright. I’ve been involved in theater since I was a teenager. My first degree was in acting and I eventually got an MFA in playwriting, but found that it was almost impossible to get a production. A play doesn’t reach completion until it is performed on stage, and you need dozens of people (and quite a bit of money) to finish the work. I turned to writing fiction because at least I had the satisfaction of experiencing my writing as completed, even if it was never published.
That being said, I’m better suited to writing fiction. I’m not a great collaborator; I’m too much of a control freak.
How would you describe your voice and approach as a writer? What do you aim to capture or explore when you write?
I’m always writing about human flaws: delusions, and the countless ways we sabotage ourselves. It goes without saying I’m not interested in likable characters. Someone once described my voice as that of a jaded queen who confuses bitterness with brilliance and cruelty with charisma, and that’s mostly accurate. In Waiting for Something Else, Roger is repeatedly faced with a dilemma: truth or kindness. He always chooses truth. In most cases, the two are mutually exclusive. My job as a writer is to tell the truth as I see it, which sometimes means being unkind. Which definitely means writing unlikable characters. Which also means making offensive statements and saying things people will disagree with. In my daily life, I usually only open my mouth to disagree with someone. My writing is no different.
Are there specific authors, books, or even other art forms that have left a lasting impression on how you write?
Tennessee Williams was an early influence. I remember getting his plays from the library when I was around eleven or twelve and reading them like survival manuals. Afterward, I would watch the movies on TV. There’s not a gay person alive who can’t identify with the exquisite alienation of a Williams heroine. Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf was a revelation to me: the rhythms in the language, the desperation of characters. It’s like a musical about delusion and emotional warfare, with tap numbers performed by gin-soaked dreamers.
The stories of Lorrie Moore were a big influence. It was the first time I saw that humor could be used to reveal complex characterization. In that same vein, Olive Kitteridge, Sabbath’s Theater, and The Corrections all provided me with examples of how humor can evoke deeper meanings and elicit a bond of mutual recognition between reader and writer.
In terms of writing style and characters, my work probably has more in common with TV shows like Six Feet Under, Girls, High Maintenance, and Difficult People. The first two decades of the 21st century was a golden age for writing on TV. Unfortunately, that has mostly passed.
What part of the writing process comes most naturally to you — and what part do you find the most challenging?
Quick answer: I hate all of it.
Longer answer: Writing helps me to figure out things. To understand what I don’t know. Creating stories is a way to understand people and myself. It’s not the easiest or most rewarding way, but it’s the best way to figure things out and to communicate my thoughts with others.
The question: Why do I feel the need to communicate my thoughts to others? is another topic entirely. It probably has to do with vanity.
Inside Waiting for Something Else
How would you introduce Waiting for Something Else to new readers in just a few lines?
Set in a high-energy Brooklyn gourmet restaurant in 2006—amid the frenzy of gentrification—Waiting for Something Else captures the chaos of restaurant life while exploring sexual fluidity, unrequited love, and the messy modern search for connection. At its heart, the novel follows James, a straight man who falls in love—but not quite in lust—with his gay co-worker, Roger.
What was the original seed for this story? Did it begin with a character, a moment, a question?
It began when I was waiting tables and having a discussion with my straight manager after work. He said, “You know, if you were a woman, we would make a great couple.”
I started to wonder about the role gender played in romantic attraction, and if it ever could be changed. All my best friends have been women, and it would’ve been far easier to fall in love with them, compared to the emotionally unavailable, communication-challenged men I kept having relationships with.
I started to think about what makes us attracted to a person. Is it something hardwired and immutable, or can it change over time? And not just gender, but other aspects of attraction as well. All of the characters in Waiting for Something Else have certain “types” to which they gravitate. For Roger, it’s tall, muscular men. For James, it’s domineering, beautiful women. For Sherry, it’s artists; for Diego, it’s masculinity; for Syd, it’s money; for Phillip, it’s youth; and for Vik, it’s white men. The novel explores the question: Can we expand the “types” we’ve habitually been attracted to?
What surprised you during the writing of this novel — about the story, the characters, or even yourself?
When I started writing, I believed that everyone has a fixed type. James complains that his ex-girlfriend told him he’s not her type, and Roger replies, “Everybody has a type. We can’t break out of it. Scratch anybody’s lover, and underneath you’ll find Mama with a rolling pin or Daddy with a belt.”
I planned on writing a story about the futility of fighting against the ingrained nature of types, formed by biology, our parents, or our first loves. But over the years I spent writing the novel, I realized that maybe we could move away from our habitual types. Maybe something even as seemingly absolute as sexual orientation could be augmented. James has a strong emotional connection to Roger, and at first, he’s not really sexually attracted. After having sex with Roger, he’s still somewhat on the fence about it, but less so.
How do you strike a balance between humor and vulnerability in your work? Does one tend to lead the other in your writing?
Of course, there must be a balance, but in writing Waiting for Something Else, humor came first. I wanted to write a novel that was funny on every page. Not just amusing, but laugh-out-loud funny. There aren’t many literary novels that are truly funny. Because funny requires craft, timing, and the willingness to hurt people’s feelings. You need a certain distance for humor, and literary fiction emphasizes empathy, where everything a protagonist is feeling, the reader must also feel. Where readers closely identify with characters and approve of all their actions. This doesn’t leave room for humor.
I had a professor once who let students vote on the first novel we had to read for class; we chose Super Sad True Love Story, which was popular at the time. During our discussion, the professor tore it apart. When I asked him what humorous literary novels he considered successful, he replied, without irony, The Crying of Lot 49. Now Thomas Pynchon may be absurd; he may be playful, but no one’s laughing out loud unless they’re trying to impress someone at a party. And this sums up the literary world’s relationship to comedy. If a novel is slightly surreal or contains a whiff of irony, it’s suddenly hilarious.
I wanted to write a novel with emotional depth, that had something interesting to say about the world, but humor wasn’t an afterthought; it was the spine. It was the engine pulling the story up the hill.
The Writer’s Inner World
What motivates you to keep going when writing gets hard — whether from self-doubt, burnout, or life distractions?
Honestly, I don’t have much of anything else going on in my life. I completely understand why so many give up on writing. It’s a life without much validation. If I had a family, or an important job that gave me recognition and significant remuneration, I might have given up on writing years ago, like so many of my cohorts. But writing, for the little validations it offers, is all I got.
In the years I was writing Waiting for Something Else, and a couple other novels that never got published, what kept me going was being published in literary journals. I know hardly anyone reads these journals. I remember bringing some lit mags into my MFA program and I couldn’t even give them away—not even writers were interested. But having editors, who spent their time evaluating stories, pick my work out of hundreds, gave me the motivation to keep moving forward.
What does this novel mean to you personally — and how do you hope it resonates with others?
I hope it makes people laugh. And then I hope they think a bit more deeply about what makes them attracted to others, and if they could ever expand their boundaries.
Looking Ahead
What are you working on now — or what ideas are you excited to explore next?
I’m working on a novel about a liberal dog-walker in Brooklyn who moves to Alabama and falls in love with a handsome, hedonistic, Trump supporter.
What’s one piece of advice you’d offer to aspiring writers — especially those still figuring out how to write through doubt or distraction?
Prepare for a life of poverty and disappointment. Here is where we come back to the truth vs kindness dilemma. And this is where I disagree with many writers and teachers. I don’t feel it’s my job to give people hope. It’s my job to give people truth.
I think of being a successful author as akin to winning the lottery (success defined as being able to earn a middle-class living). You never hear from lottery losers. Interviews are given to the winners. So we hear from successful authors who’ve won awards or have bestsellers, and they say, “I did it and so can you.” But that’s a lie. Very few writers can become successful authors. We’re selling a product that most people don’t want to buy. And success depends mostly on luck, not talent. That’s a truth I take solace in. I know many writers with outstanding books that didn’t win the lottery. So if I don’t win the lottery—it’s okay.
Where can readers follow your work or connect with you online?
I’m pretty active on Facebook. My Instagram is: @martinomatic; and readers can find purchase links for Waiting for Something Else at: www.martincloutier.net.
Thanks,
Hiram Larew
https://samanthaterrell.weebly.com/shine-poetry-series/may-30-hiram-larew